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Interview

Ridley Scott on ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ Re-Release, How Eva Green ‘Never Forgave’ Him for Cutting Down Her Role, and the Western He Still Wants to Make

Scott tells IndieWire about the 4K director's cut of his maligned 2005 Christians-as-infidels epic and the "constant aggressive dance" between commerce and art that defines his career.
Ridley Scott
Ridley Scott at the UK premiere of 'Gladiator II'
Gareth Cattermole/Getty Images

Talking to Ridley Scott feels a bit like it must have been to watch gladiator matches in the Roman Colosseum: You never quite know what to expect, but it’s guaranteed to be an exciting ride.

He’s been knighted, nominated for four Oscars, and his films have grossed more than $5 billion worldwide. Even if he wasn’t 87 years old and 30 films into an almost 50-year career, Scott has earned the right to talk about what he likes. On a recent Sunday morning, the subject was his 2005 filmKingdom of Heaven,” which now receives a limited re-release in theaters and a spanking-new 4K transfer on home video.

Starring Orlando Bloom, Eva Green, Jeremy Irons, David Thewlis, Brendan Gleeson, and Edward Norton, the original “Kingdom of Heaven” grossed $218 million worldwide up against a $130 million budget and mixed reviews. At the time an underwhelming period follow-up from the man who previously directed Best Picture winner “Gladiator,” its director’s-cut version has earned a reputation as one of Scott’s best films. Yet 20 years later, he’s as eager to digress from his intended path as to luxuriate in a well-earned victory lap.

Speaking recently to IndieWire, Ridley Scott looked back at “Kingdom of Heaven” and its unconventional approach to exploring the twin histories of Christianity and Islam in a post-9/11 cinematic landscape. In addition to comparing it to the red-meat satisfaction of “Gladiator,” Scott recalled the process of casting Edward Norton as leprosy-stricken King Baldwin without giving him credit, discussed the inspirations of David Lean and John Ford’s “The Searchers,” and revealed the one script in his war chest of unrealized projects that he’s still desperate to make.

This interview has been edited for clarity and length.

IndieWire: As the man who popularized director’s cuts with “Blade Runner,” where does this film rank for you in terms of Hollywood’s mistreatment of your work?

Ridley Scott: You could write a book about that, dude — and that would be Chapter One only. The problem is it is a constant aggressive dance between commerce against art, and each side has the right to have an opinion. If somebody’s giving me a million dollars to fuck around and make my movie, he has a right to have some opinion. If somebody’s giving me $200 million, he has every right to have a fucking opinion. If I was on that side, I would want to know everything. So in a way, you both get in each other’s way.

But I never made a movie until I was 40 — I was experienced in advertising. I’d done Steve Jobs’ first commercial. but I’d probably done 2,000 or 3,000 commercials as a filmmaker and operator, and I was very, very successful where we had offices in Paris, London, New York, and L.A. So when I moved to Hollywood, I ain’t a learner. I’m not a kid. I’m walking in with “The Duellists,” which won [best debut film] at Cannes. They [didn’t] know what to do with it, so they made seven prints for America. My first film is “Duellists,” my second film is “Alien,” third one is “Blade Runner,” the fourth film is “Legend.” And at the end of all that, because none of them quite worked except for “Alien,” one of them said, “Have you ever thought making a film about normal people?” I thought, maybe they’re right. So then there was a very little, really great film called “Someone to Watch Over Me.”

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, Orlando Bloom, 2005, TM & Copyright (c) 20th Century Fox Film Corp. All rights reserved.
‘Kingdom of Heaven’©20thCentFox/Courtesy Everett Collection

You had been intrigued by the Crusades for a really long time, but “Kingdom of Heaven” feels heavily filtered through a more secular, contemporary perspective. How intentional was that as you and William Monahan began to put this together?

Bill’s writing is so persuasive that I didn’t fully recognize, even though 9/11 had just happened, what thin ice we were walking on. Also, Bill’s coming at it from a reverse point of view that the infidel[s] — us — are the assholes, and we are invading a place where we shouldn’t even be. Doesn’t that echo many cases today? We’re not going to go there, but it fucking does. On top of that, the King of Morocco asked to see me, and so I go to his court, he sits down, has a cigarette, and we chat. He said, “This script is beautiful. It has such respect for my faith and my culture. I will help you and protect you.” That was the beginning, and I’d just had one of the best experiences I’ve ever had in Morocco. I’ve [now] done five things in Morocco. Frankly, I nearly always had a good time because I feel comfortable with the culture.

Was this film always meant to be a slightly more subdued or slower-burn kind of story than something soapier and more conventionally crowd-pleasing like “Gladiator”?

Listen, crowd-pleasing is a billion dollars, dude. So believe me, I’m very happy if I please the crowd. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, because we are in the business of entertainment. If not, you shouldn’t be doing it.

Of course, but was this something where that different perspective was going to demand an approach that wasn’t as flashy as “Gladiator” was?

Well, I don’t think “Gladiator” was flashy to start with, but I think I understood what the Roman universe would be like. I’m good at getting into the smell of the time. And all I can do is look at reference [materials] and try and imagine what it was like. In Rome, they still celebrate “Gladiator” by running the Coliseum once a year. So the Italians quite like it. And then “Kingdom of Heaven” was the most popular film in Egypt, and I think it’s partly because when the film was put out 20 years ago, it seems to be about religion and the conflict of that. I think a certain kind of audience will simply not go and sit because they’re not interested. So my feeling is that because of the platform [of home video], “Kingdom of Heaven” is there all the time, every night globally and people got to sit and go, “Wow, that’s good.” And so off that, Fox now has had a very, very good 20 year run with it. And that’s why they came back and said, “I want to put it out in 500 theaters in 4K. Are you up for it?” I said, “Of course.” Now, I’ve had many journalists who say they’re experts, and they said, “But this was not like that… and that was not like that.” And my question to them was, “Were you there?” And they said, “No.” So I said, “Well, shut the fuck up. Go fuck yourself. Go write a book.”

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, Orlando Bloom, Eva Green, 2005, TM & Copyright (c) 20th Century Fox Film Corp. All rights reserved.
‘Kingdom of Heaven’©20thCentFox/Courtesy Everett Collection

There’s this incredible silent weapon in this film with Edward Norton as the masked King Baldwin. Was he always meant to be uncredited?

He didn’t want to. I said, “Ed, are you sure you want to do this?” He said, “Yes, I don’t give a fuck. I want to be in the movie.” He said, “And don’t credit me because I’m not there. It’s only my voice. But [as an actor,] I want to experience the film.” And that was it.

And I got lucky because I met [Ghassan Massoud,] who was really a very strong Muslim actor who played Saladin so well and so sympathetically — fundamentally based on actual history. Saladin died, not exactly a pauper, but a poor man because he began life as a soldier, a general, a warrior, a philanthropist, a rich man. Then when he insisted people had to leave Jerusalem, and without [violence], his fervent guys with behind him said, “There has to be blood.” He said, “No, there has to be tax.” They settled for the tax to leave. Saladin paid for it, and it bankrupted him.

Restored in the director’s cut, the inclusion of Sibylla’s son was a big point of contention in the conception of this film. Were there other details that you faced hurdles in trying to include?

Bill wrote a character I can only describe within his Muslim faith as a fundamentalist who was constantly contradicting Saladin. There’s great scenes where [this character] said, “Why haven’t you done this? You should have done that.” And then Saladin would come back; he gives an answer which cuts his balls off. Every faith has fundamentalism, so we included those extremities, and the guy who played the extremist was fucking great as well.

Bill wrote the script, and now and then I was helpful. With [King Baldwin,] I used to live in a house from 1360. Does that say much? I had a fucking moat. It was lit with candles — nuts, right? I love feeling like I’m living in the past. And as Sibylla’s brother, he got leprosy at 15, and he functioned till he died at 23, 24, and had to wear a mask because he was so disfigured. He had to be lifted in the saddle to appear to be fine because he was supporting his position as the King of Jerusalem. In the recorded history, it was purported that Sibylla’s child had passed at about 13 or 14. It also suggested that the child may have had leprosy, and therefore, she could not bear to see her child go through what her brother would go through with an incurable disease. So we enlarged on that. [Eva Green] never forgave me for cutting that 17 minutes. Her mother shouted at me. “How can you do this?” I said, “I know, I’m sorry!”

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, Ghassan Massoud, 2005, TM & Copyright (c) 20th Century Fox Film Corp. All rights reserved.
‘Kingdom of Heaven’©20thCentFox/Courtesy Everett Collection

I read a quote that said that “Lawrence of Arabia” is a constant point of inspiration for you as a filmmaker. When you’re making a film like this, do you have a moment where you’re like, “I don’t mind stealing that shot of Peter O’Toole atop a sand dune?” Or, say, borrow a classic “Searchers” shot — those classic film tropes — when you’re coming up with shots?

Yeah, the best shot in “The Searchers” is the doorway in silhouette, and [John Wayne] fucking steps outside. When I was 11 years old, I saw that and said, “I want to do a Western.” I mean, “The Searchers,” in many respects, you don’t have war parties in that part of the world. They’re Navajo, so it was all wrong. But it’s majestic and marvelous, right? I just cannot criticize it. And not only that, it jumped onto the first idea that many women who had experienced life with a tribe never wanted to come back. Not because of what might be smuttily thought of as a thing, but the fact that their way of life was more attractive. So [John Ford] even dared to do that with Natalie Wood. Then they tried to correct it because John Wayne wants to shoot her.

But David Lean, I have great admiration for everything he did. One day I actually had lunch with him. I was making “Legend” with a 21-year-old Tom Cruise in Pinewood. I’ve got my massive forest on the Bond stage, and David walked in saying, “Who the is this madman building this fucking forest?” So he said, “You want to have lunch?” So I had lunch with David Lean. And he was great, very elegant man. Smoked a lot. And at two o’clock, he said, “I think you should get back.” I said, “Absolutely,” and I sort of saluted him and left.

Not just with this release, but in the 20 years since it was released, do you feel like “Kingdom of Heaven” has truly been vindicated?

If a film educates at all, it was worth it. People sit and watch this who’d never normally watch it, so thank you for streaming — otherwise, it would be lying on a fucking shelf in some vault somewhere for 20 years. “The Duellists” runs every night on Netflix. That’s 50 years old! So thank God when people say, “What the fuck is that?” and click. And they go, and they’re engaged. And in “The Duellists” you’ll learn a little bit about Napoleon, right? You know, but I loved doing “Matchstick Men,” which is comically funny. But I try and change my venue constantly — I like being on thin ice.

THE DUELLISTS, from left: Harvey Keitel, Keith Carradine, 1977
‘The Duellists’Courtesy Everett Collection

Looking at your filmography, there are dozens of projects that came and went. “Tripoli” was the film that led to “Kingdom of Heaven.” Is there one among those unrealized projects that you haven’t been able to do that still kind of haunts you?

Well, those, I own them. There’s always a time that they can be done. I own a Western, which is the best Western I’ve read, which was written 1980 by a very good writer who passed away in COVID. We [contacted] his estate and said, “Can I buy the script?” So I own it. And if you’re going to do a Western, for me, it can’t be about towns and saloons and batwing doors and reeling lines with a whip — you know, cow catching and shit like that. I mean, that’s not my kind of Western. It has to be about the Indigenous people and the trappers or the men who wander through the plains from minus 40 degrees to 110 and live their life having to evolve around the Indigenous people. So it’s that, and it’s so fundamental. It’s absolutely great.

Is that a Cormac McCarthy adaptation, or something else?

No, I did one thing with Cormac McCarthy, which I think is one of my best films, but it’s too dark. It’s called “The Counselor.” If you are a writer, I think it might appeal because the dialogue of Cormac is phenomenal, and I fell in love with it. You know we made that film for $32 million with that cast? It speaks for Cormac. I read it and went, “Whoa!” And I started making phone calls, and I had everyone cast by noon.

Thank you so much for your time. Can you tell me the name of that Western that you wanted to make?

No.

The director’s cut of “Kingdom of Heaven” is now available on 4K Blu-ray.

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